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New Forum? (Read 7568 times)
9th Mar, 2007 at 7:43pm

andyjohnston.net   Offline
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Would there be any interest in a Missions Forum?

I for one am in the process of trying to create my first simple mission and I'm about to tear my hair out!  It would allow people to share their experience, just like the others forums...fora...fori...what's the plural of forum?
 
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Reply #1 - 9th Mar, 2007 at 9:19pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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To be perfectly honest, there's already a dedicated "Missions" forum at Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

...but the weeds are already armpit tall there.   Shocked

The last post was on 09/03/06...  Roll Eyes
 

Fr. Bill
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Reply #2 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 12:29am

lionheart   Offline
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Andy,

I would like to see that.  I am interested in how to do missions for FSX and would be one to paruse it daily.  Good idea.



Bill

PS; the bribe payoff to Felix might be substantial though..   We'd have to all chip in, lol...
 

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Reply #3 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 5:07am

jonbouy   Offline
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I think a bigger source of bribery revenue would be produced from the idea of a FS9 > FSX model conversion sub-forum. *sigh*
 

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Reply #4 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:45am

Chuck Jodry   Offline
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Seen at SOH , what we need is an obituary as it would appear MS has shot and pissed on the remains ,,, pulling all
support docs , sdk , 9.1 update and all signs of its propaganda and related piffle.... i could not imagine the intent
was anything other than to program us to buy the new product and bury all traces of the old .....
Its rather unseemly to see how fast they shoveled the dirt , pulling this stuff at the same time as the new version came out like they could not get it done fast enough  ... reminds me of whatserfaces mother on CNN last week.

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« Last Edit: 10th Mar, 2007 at 9:12am by Chuck Jodry »  

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Reply #5 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:08am

jonbouy   Offline
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The 9.1 service pack is still here. (note the GUID  Grin )

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The SDK's have vanished though, somehow I must have had a divine tip off as I downloaded the lot less than a week ago.  Roll Eyes
It does seem odd in that the 2002 sdk's were available throughout the fs9 life cycle.
 

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Reply #6 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:20am

Rick_Piper   Offline
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Hi Guys

I stopped frequenting the fsdeveloper forum when some guy started telling everyone that good freeware was being unfair to payware developers.

So for me that killed the sites credibility as that is B******* by any standard Roll Eyes

Regards
Rick Wink
 
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Reply #7 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:25am

J_MacKay   Offline
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You can still download the SDK's from this site

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Reply #8 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:31am

jonbouy   Offline
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Rick_Piper wrote on 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:20am:
Hi Guys

I stopped frequenting the fsdeveloper forum when some guy started telling everyone that good freeware was being unfair to payware developers.

So for me that killed the sites credibility as that is B******* by any standard Roll Eyes

Regards
Rick Wink


Yeah I noticed that too... Grin
Given the quality of YOUR freeware Rick, by that token you must be the 'enemy' over there... Cool

I just want my hobby to remain fun, without politics and platform issues, life offers enough crap elsewhere.
 

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Reply #9 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:42am

lionheart   Offline
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Yep...

I found out about it at Sim-Outhouse also as Chuck did.  The post is getting long now and over 400 views in a single afternoon.

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I think its sad and a rough statement on behalf of MS.  My FS9 is indeed very much 'not' dead.  I am not happy with FSX.  I never run it.  Its a slide show just like CFS3 was when it came out.  That and what they did to us to create models, the massively complex levels, and GUID's????   arrghh....  My FS9 is resurrected!

Wozza also had some eye-opening things to say.

You think about it, there are many people out there in third world countries (as well as in America) with antiquated computers, (all they can afford) that can barely run FS9.  Some are still running FS2000.  We get people in here wanting to make planes for FS98.  You have seen them.  That they (MS) would yank FS9 says one thing to me.  FS9 was competing against FSX and winning.  That they can just yank it tells me they are competing against themselves.  A house that turns against itself shall surely fall.

Bill
 

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Reply #10 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 8:00am

jonbouy   Offline
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I dunno if it is just me but I attempted my first model for FS9 last year, and man that was like a total headswerve. 
Speaking from that context I don't think things have got any more complicated with the new SDK short of providing the additional functionality available in the new sim, sure I've now got to relearn a load of new syntax but I don't reckon the task if you are newly engaging in the hobby is any more difficult than it was for me this time last year, other than the not insignificant fact that the amassed knowledge available here for FS9 and 2k2 was already immense.
The sim itself presently I cannot run due to the 800mhz/Riva TNT equipped machine I'm still using, but every new release of FS has outreached the available (to most mortals) hardware and the same arguments have been levelled at MS since FS went Windows.
I'm gonna truly wet myself laughing if this SDK situation is merely a MS web upgrade issue and they all re-appear in the next coupla weeks.

btw does any one remember BAO Flightshop, blimey I bought a copy of that once and took it straight back to the shop because it looked too complicated!!!  Shocked

Flight Sim is dead, long live Flight Sim.

Grin Grin Grin
 

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Reply #11 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 11:28am

Fr. Bill   Offline
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Rick_Piper wrote on 10th Mar, 2007 at 7:20am:
Hi Guys

I stopped frequenting the fsdeveloper forum when some guy started telling everyone that good freeware was being unfair to payware developers.

So for me that killed the sites credibility as that is B******* by any standard Roll Eyes

Regards
Rick Wink


So, one person farts in church and you condemn the entire congregation?  Every forum/website/email list has its share of trolls, or those with trollish behaviors.  I just ignore 'em for the most part.  However, from the looks of the "poll" and the entire discussion, it would appear that Hort's initial comment was poorly received - or at least misunderstood.  English is not his native language after all.  Undecided

Most of the folks at fsdeveloper.com are freeware producers... In fact, if you aren't aware of this, fsdeveloper.com is nothing more than an expansion of scenerydesign.org, and is hosted/managed by several of the TOP freeware scenery producers.  Arno G. is the Administrator, and without his and Doc Moriarity's "FREEWARE" tools, most of the really cool free & payware scenery wouldn't be possible... Wink

If anyone uses the Middleman/ModelCommander in their GMax-FS9 modeling path, one-half of that came from Doc Moriarty.  Arno's famous for his animation tools among another dozoen or so must-have programs.  Grin
 

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Reply #12 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 5:35pm

jonbouy   Offline
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Quote:
So, one person farts in church and you condemn the entire congregation?


Surely, if it made you gag it might be an idea to politely leave and make for fresh air awhile.  Wink
 

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Reply #13 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:20pm

lionheart   Offline
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To keep the thread on track, I agree that Andy's idea of a Missions forum room is a good one.  I think its worth a test to see if it gets attention for 30 days and if not, perhaps we can delete it.  (Just a thought).

To now regress and go back to the direction the thread has gone too....

I too had seen how Aces was now working with a key number of payware groups and it seems that perhaps freeware was a slight 'bother'.

It was freeware that made FS what it is today.  Fr. Bill points this out with freeware tools.  I use DXTBmp daily, as well as Model Commander.  (I really need to send Moriarty a donation, and have so to DXTBmp as I am massively grateful for their work).  But, payware was born of people that would invest in teh time to make planes far far more better then even Microsoft 'had' at the time, (their new FSX models are a 'change' to perfection and massively impressive and very much so payware quality now, which makes me proud of them for doing that).

But if we get rid of the small guys that replaced making plastic models with making sim models, (which is evident that that is where the group of very good model makers came from, me being a slight off-shoot of them, making design models), if they are 'eradicated' by making things too difficult by making HIGHLY complex operations for these models as well as making a $3,000.00 program the platform to make them on instead of Gmax or FSDS, then perhaps its time to look for either a new FS or to just camp out and stay with FS9..........

<----  to go even further on the 'biblical' direction, just now reading Hebrews..  Great read.  Never realised the implications of the 'new Covenant'.
 

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Reply #14 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:37pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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lionheart wrote on 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:20pm:
I too had seen how Aces was now working with a key number of payware groups and it seems that perhaps freeware was a slight 'bother'.


The group of folks invited to "work with ACES" in terms of a closer relationship numbered just over 300. Of that initial group, more than 200 were freeware folks, including all of the "big guns" in the freeware arena, as well as quite a few of the less well-known.

To spin the facts to make it sound like only payware folks were included is more than disengenuous, it is simply wrong...  Shocked
 

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Reply #15 - 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:55pm

lionheart   Offline
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Fr. Bill,

What I am saying is they were taking advice from payware groups and I believe were working more closer with payware groups then freeware.

Lets face it, payware groups are extremely intense on the hard facts with FS as it is their very survival, not just a hobby, thus it makes them a very good source to listen to.

However, I think that some things lead to some things and a 'direction' of sorts.  For instance, why use so many GUID's?  Is that for tracking payware models?  or for actually making it easier on frame rates on an aircraft...  

I am not being a finger pointer.  Just stressing that advice may have been heard most from payware and that it influenced the outcome.  No more no less.  If I were in charge of Aces, I could see this happening.  You want the best advice you can get.

There is a famous saying that car designers and car engineers hear alot.  There was a team of people that were assembled to design a 'horse'.  One wanted best mileage, one wanted best speed, one wanted most best ride, while another wanted the best terrain system available.  What the team came up with was a camel...    Too many voices, too many directions.

Then there are the engineers that say 'KISS'...    Keep it simple dude....

 

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Reply #16 - 11th Mar, 2007 at 7:21pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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ACES biggest mistake, fault, and otherwise major faux pas was, and continues to be, their utter lack of attention to that most excellent source of knowledge, Inspector Poly.

Having said that, it does appear that many people - both in the freeware and payware environment, were actively listened to, and most importantly, for probably sound internal (to ACES/Microsoft) reasons at the time, IGNORED.  One only has to scan past postings, here and in other forums, for tidbits from beta testers to the effect that "we told them time and again that xxxx was screwed up...  "

I dare say that ACES/Microsoft listened to the various inputs, took what was offered, and used as best they could.  Remember, they were, in a sense, limited by forcing backward compatibility (and I don't blame them, look what happened to CFS3)

I'm willing to add a Missions Forum, see how it turns out, with the understanding that there may be other venues that may have better discussions of the Missions SDK, just as the AVSIM Design forum is one of the better places for gauge design, and fsdeveloper.com/scenery.org for scenery, and avhistory.org for flight dynamics....


 

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Reply #17 - 11th Mar, 2007 at 11:48pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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lionheart wrote on 10th Mar, 2007 at 6:55pm:
However, I think that some things lead to some things and a 'direction' of sorts.  For instance, why use so many GUID's?  Is that for tracking payware models?  or for actually making it easier on frame rates on an aircraft...  


Actually, the concept of GUIDs has absolutely nothing to do with either ACES, FS, or tracking models per se. There are many reasons for using GUIDs, but for purposes of the sim they allow entire "objects" to be referenced using a single, unique number.

It is simply more efficient for the rendering engine to use GUID to say "apply this operation to that collection of "things", which constitute <THIS> object."

Completely aside from which, what is your concern?  When creating an aircraft model, only one GUID is needed, and you don't even have to make one up yourself!  When making a scenery object, one would need to create a unique GUID, but that too is a simple process.

And of course, when adding a new <Animation> to modeldef.xml one needs a unique GUID. This takes all of perhaps four seconds to accomplish.

Consider the odds of two people giving the same scenery or aircraft object the same "name," and then consider that the odds of creating a duplicate GUID are precisely
1 : 3.4028236692093846346337460743177e+38

Putting it into a more easily visualized number, if you had 1,000,000 computers each generating 1,000,000 GUIDs per day, in 5 years you would have generated less than 2% of the total possible number of unique GUIDs...  Grin

I honestly don't see why anyone would be all that concerned with the issue...  Shocked

Oh yes, and Felix... I'm not referring to the "beta team" here, but rather those who came nearly a full year b]before[/b] the "beta team..."
 

Fr. Bill
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Reply #18 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 1:43am

lionheart   Offline
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One of the statements that was told to people during the 'beta' times, was 'Not this time around'.  I saw this statement a number of times.

With space (outer space), one could do so many darn incredible things..  But if engines dont run in space, then what the heck?  The next FS will take how long to come about?  6 years?  So for 6 years, we deal with space 'being' there and no way to use it.  Oh, yeah, we can slew there, lol...    

Thank you Fr. Bill for the tutorial on GUID's.  

Why not simply create a compiler that inserts the GUID code for you and why not create an automated assignment system that saves a file in the project save file in Max/Gmax for that project so that you can retain the invaluable GUID's.  The 'plug-in' automated GUID assignment system would simply manage it for you and simpletons like me would only need to click 'Ok, yes, assign the rudder and ailerons their own GUID's and save to master GUID file please' button.  Seems that this is the year 2007 and we should have systems that generate code for us, but I guess not.  (Yes, I know there is a code generator, but, well..     nevermind).

I do look forward to the missions forum.  This should be pretty cool.  I myself am working on a missions interface for FS9, lol.  Would love to show everyone how it works when I get it completed.
 

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Reply #19 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 9:38am

jonbouy   Offline
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@Bill (lionheart)

I'm sitting here silently urging you to make the FSX development plunge, your FS9 techniques that you have clearly illustrated for our benefit on here have been indispensable, at least to me.

I've seen various concerns raised by yourself in various posts about the changes required the GUID 'issue' being one of those things that during my initial 'studies' has already proved to be a non-issue.
I notice that XML being case sensitive is one of the other issues that you cite as being a problem, but bear in mind that FS9 isn't fussy about case once you have converted your existing code for case in order to work with FSX FS9 is not going to complain about caps at all.  After all XML by it's very nature is supposed to completely unambiguous and being case sensitive brings it closer to the standard.
Having to key frame axis animations, e.g. props and control surfaces, doesn't seem such a big bug bear as it did to me initially either once you have them set up for FSX it's a snip to remove them (and I'm not sure so far whether doing that is even necessary) for the FS9 version and mostly the axes are in the right position after key framing them anyways.
Which leaves the biggest issue as being the new materials, an area which you undoubtedly have excelled in with FS9, and an area I'm sure we'll all appreciate your eye in, in the future, with all the new texture techniques that are becoming available to us as we ALL get our heads around them.

As for running the sim presently its out of the question for me but at least I can check via the slideshow that my models are showing up correctly and much of the flight model can be developed in FS9 leaving beta testers with 'Goliath' machines to check ride them.  I'm sure too that in the long term too the unpaid beta testers or early adopters will have corrected the flaws in the game by FSX SP3 by which time FS9 will be the old version of the sim Grin

I'm sure its easier for me a relatively newbie to make the changes required as I have not been a successful developer like you, for the period of time you have where you have created your own methods and techniques in a particular way and made them your own.  But I do hope you take the plunge real soon because the hobby would be that bit less complete without your input

Regards

Jon
 

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Reply #20 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 3:33pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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lionheart wrote on 12th Mar, 2007 at 1:43am:
Thank you Fr. Bill for the tutorial on GUID's.  

Why not simply create a compiler that inserts the GUID code for you and why not create an automated assignment system that saves a file in the project save file in Max/Gmax for that project so that you can retain the invaluable GUID's.  The 'plug-in' automated GUID assignment system would simply manage it for you and simpletons like me would only need to click 'Ok, yes, assign the rudder and ailerons their own GUID's and save to master GUID file please' button.  Seems that this is the year 2007 and we should have systems that generate code for us, but I guess not.  (Yes, I know there is a code generator, but, well..     nevermind).


You are welcome, to be sure.  However, it appears that I've still not managed to make reality transparent enough for your comprehension.  This is entirely my fault though, I'm sure!   Embarrassed

You are simply making a "mountain out of a molehill" with all this anxiety.

The GUIDs are pre-supplied in the modeldef.xml file for all ACES supplied, stock animations. The modeler never has to deal with them, ever!

The only GUID a modeler must be concerned with in most cases is the one for the Max/GMax project, and that is handled automatically by the plugin.  One simply opens the "LODName Tool," clicks on "Create GUID for this file" and then types in a "Friendly Name."  DONE!  Grin

Any new "<Animation>" code the modeler might create does need to have a unique GUID for use in the modeldef.xml file, but once again that is a trivial matter, and only needs to be done once!

What I do is simply copy/paste any of the existing ones at random, then change at least one number in each of the groups:

guid="A6F1C5D0-BEF6-449e-BAF8-FB777F27808F"

guid="B6F1C5D0-CEF6-549e-CAF8-0B777F27808F"

All I've done in the example above was to add 1 to each of the first digits in each group...

A + 1 = B
B + 1 = C
4 + 1 = 5
B + 1 = C
F + 1 = 0

I deliberately kept this example "simple," but in reality I change numbers within each group randomly...  Cheesy

I sure hope this is clear enough, 'cause I sure can't think of any way to make it simpler...   Wink
 

Fr. Bill
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Reply #21 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 3:49pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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'Tis easy, now guidalong doggie!

 

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Reply #22 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 4:41pm

jonbouy   Offline
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Quote:
'Tis easy, now guidalong doggie!


Oh my Guid  Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #23 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 5:00pm

andyjohnston.net   Offline
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I just use the GUID Generating Tool, isn't that the easiest way?
 
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Reply #24 - 12th Mar, 2007 at 5:14pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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andyjohnston.net wrote on 12th Mar, 2007 at 5:00pm:
I just use the GUID Generating Tool, isn't that the easiest way?



If it works for you, so much the better!  Ulimately, it's whatever you're comfortable with that works.



 

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Reply #25 - 13th Mar, 2007 at 8:07pm

lionheart   Offline
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Many thanks guys for working with my anxiety with these changes. 

Thanks also Jonbouy.  I will certainly try to rejoin with the group when I get caught up here and share in the....    the....    arrghhh...   STRESSSSS!    lol

Shocked    Lips Sealed    Grin
 

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Reply #26 - 26th Mar, 2007 at 11:31pm

jonbouy   Offline
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jonbouy wrote on 10th Mar, 2007 at 8:00am:
I'm gonna truly wet myself laughing if this SDK situation is merely a MS web upgrade issue and they all re-appear in the next coupla weeks.
Grin Grin Grin


Grin Grin Grin .....  Embarrassed  Shocked
 

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Reply #27 - 12th Apr, 2007 at 1:24am

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What goes up doesn't have
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Lafayette, Colorado (Denver)

Gender: male
Posts: 66
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Well, my 2 cents is that I love FSX. Yes, I miss some of the planes that work only in past versions, but I guess FS needed somewhat of an overhaul at some time. Why not now? Technology with all games is changing and I think Aces is thinking of the future. I think FS is going to be so complex in years to come that they needed to make changes now in order to open up a new frontier for future development. I miss my Stearman and my Sea Fury, and I am frustrated as a panel designer at the new XML pop-ups, but I have to realize that the foundation has been layed for a magnificent future.

I also play Battlefield 2, a first-person-shooter game, and EA Games has totally slammed the door in the face of its own customers. EA is a terrible company with little vision. When I bought FSX I was amazed that MS gave us all the SDKs and Gmax right on the disks! They are taking a whole different approach than EA Games. They are embracing us modders instead of shutting us out. I applaud them for that.

I just hope they have learned their lesson from CFS3. That was a total debacle! Who's idea was that to create a whole different game engine?? Hopefully CFS4 will be built on the FSX engine and return balance to the world. LOL

Will we see a merger of FS and CFS? Will space flight be introduced and CFS Space come about from this? Will they ever give us a fricken rocket engine? Grrrrr...
 
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